Honourable Mentions

Duško Popov: D-Day, Pearl Harbor, J. Edgar Hoover and James Bond.

• Steve and Neil Webb • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Serbian, Duško Popov was a good looking, exquisitely dressed, multi-lingual international playboy and, as codename Ivan, he was the top spy for the German Military Intelligence (Abwehr) in the Second World War.

But, under the codename Tricycle, the same Duško Popov was also leading dangerous espionage missions for MI6 and the British. 

J. Edgar Hoover, a glamorous film star, and a future novelist all cross his path for better or for worse. 

Join us for another fascinating Honourable Mentions with a twist in the tale.


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unknown:

Honorable.

SPEAKER_05:

Hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of Honourable Mentions. Hello, Neil. How are you? Hello Stevie. All right, thank you very much. Do you mind if I call you Neil? Neil?

SPEAKER_04:

You dippy bread and gravy.

SPEAKER_00:

Would you rather I called you Neil? Or would you rather I called you Dusko?

SPEAKER_04:

Ooh. Quite not Dusko, but I I think everyone knows me as Neil, so I keep it as Neil.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, Neil. We'll stay with that, shall we? The reason I raised Dusko to give you the opportunity is because that is the main person we are going to be following today in Honourable Mentions. And, listener, you may already know, because you've got them written down on your calendar, that this is the seventh episode of Honourable Mentions. And therefore, we have tried to link in something as a clue for you at the very beginning. Link in something with the number seven. And a gentleman by the name of Dusko.

SPEAKER_05:

Dusko. Are you sitting comfortably? Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Are you sitting comfortably, listener? I think it is. Yes, don't be presumptuous, nearly. The listener could be on their commute, they could be having a poo. They could be laying in bed, they could be sitting on a comfortable sofa. We just don't know.

SPEAKER_04:

No, exactly. They could be fighting off a wombat.

SPEAKER_00:

They could be fighting off a wombat. They could be swinging a wasp around on a stick. We just don't know what they're getting up to. But Dusko Popov. Oh yes. That's who we're going to be talking about today. Dusko wasn't his name, his name was Dusan Dusko Popov.

SPEAKER_04:

Dusko like Dusan Dusko Popov.

SPEAKER_00:

Like a nickname, Dusko, I suppose. Like if someone is called Charles, they get the name Charlie or Chas or whatever it may be. Same with Dusan and Dusko, I believe.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Because this is Serbia we're talking about.

SPEAKER_04:

Is he still with this or has he Popoffs?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so you've got in there early with your pop-off jokes.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you. But I best do, because you always get you're still the line otherwise.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah, because I'm always doing that. It's not easy, listener, being the one that does all the work, having to write the notes, read the notes, and then Neil just sails in and takes all the lines.

SPEAKER_04:

Sorry, little violin just going off in the background.

SPEAKER_00:

Take all the lines and uh yeah, just looks like the hero. But anyway, that's enough about me and my life. Dusko Popov, this might answer your question as to whether he's still with us, Neil. Dusko Popov was born on the 10th of July 1912.

SPEAKER_04:

Serbia 113 won't be still with us.

SPEAKER_00:

Just before quarter past seven in the evening. Yeah. In modern day northern Serbia, which you're going to interrupt me now, so I'll I'll just carry on before you do. In northern Serbia, which of course was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time, I should imagine what you were just about to say. He he was the middle of three boys born to Milorad and Zora Popov. The family, this is the Popov family, were rolling in it, they were the Popov family. Your dough, your dosh.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh money.

SPEAKER_00:

Your peas, your folding, your bags. Yes. They were rolling in it. They largely owned their fortune to Millerad's father, Omer.

SPEAKER_04:

That's perhaps where you got it all from.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that was Homer.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

This is Omer.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh okay. Without the worth of fortune.

SPEAKER_00:

Just the oh. Well, he was worth a fortune. Cleaned your teeth. He was worth a fortune. I have cleaned my teeth. Do you remember that in my lifetime or in the last week?

SPEAKER_04:

Just in the last month.

SPEAKER_00:

No. Oh no.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh then.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I was seven, I think, something. I mean yeah, you had to do it because your mum was watching. Omer was a wealthy banker and an industrialist who founded a number of factories, mines, and retail businesses. Wow. So it was all down to Omer. It wasn't Homer. Even then, records from as early as 1773 describe. That was Mr.

SPEAKER_04:

Fridge.

SPEAKER_00:

This it probably was way back then. He was going on a going on a summer holiday to Serbia. But even then, records from as early as 1773 described the pop-offs as being loaded.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

So this is a family that comes from some wealth. Cha-ching. Miller had expanded the family's business interest to include real estate dealings. And don't you just know it? Look at that. It started to make even more money than they had in the first place.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh money comes to money, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Popov spent long, warm and idyllic months of the year in their large Dubrovnik home. That's Croatia, isn't it? Dubrovnik.

SPEAKER_04:

It is, Stephen, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Didn't they film some of the Game of Thrones there?

SPEAKER_04:

No idea.

SPEAKER_00:

I think they did. And they kept a manor in Belgrade, where they spent the winter months. They were attended by servants even on their travels and were only troubled by which yachts to take between their villas.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, that was a s that's a tough decision, isn't it? That's a problem in life, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a problem. You've got to choose a yacht to take.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. However terrible stress they must have.

SPEAKER_00:

However, by the time Dusko was six in the year nineteen eighteen, the once mighty Austro-Hungarian Empire had crumbled. Any idea why the Austro-Hungarian Empire crumbled in nineteen eighteen, please, Neil?

SPEAKER_04:

Was it something to do with the nineteen fourteen-1918 war?

SPEAKER_00:

It is everything to do with the nineteen fourteen, eighteen Great War, Neil, yes. That is correct. Well done.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00:

No, really, I'm I'm proud. Can you see that? A little tear? I'm I'm very, very proud. The Empire crumbled into a number of small estates, some of which were incorporated into the kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. Which was renamed to the far less catchy title of Yugoslavia in 1929.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

You'd have thought the kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Would have took if they ever won an Olympic medal, you'd be there for the next two hours when they just read out the name of the country. So yes, it became the size of the flag. It became Yugoslavia, I know. Imagine the size of the passport. This Serb-led state was plagued by infighting amongst its various ethnic groups, but the Popov family managed to rise above it all and continued on enjoying their luxurious lifestyle. That's what money does for you, isn't it? Dusko and his brothers spent most of their time along the shimmering turquoise waters of the Adriatic coast.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, you paint a lovely picture.

SPEAKER_00:

I do paint a lovely picture, don't I? There's a little clown I've done in the corner.

SPEAKER_04:

That's very good. I love what you do with crayons. Do you like it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, a little house there with some smoke coming out the chimney, see that? Yeah. And the sky's just a blue strip in the very top. That's it. They were avid athletes and outdoorsmen, the Popoff boys. Mm-hmm. Millerud Popoff built his sons that own large villa by the sea for their exclusive use. So you can imagine what that was like with three growing birds. Three lands in it.

SPEAKER_04:

That was the floods. Fridge for the Stella, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, ultimate bachelor pad.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But he was also a bit of a stickler as Miller had. He built them with their own massive, massive house to live in. But he's also insistent that they each had the best education his money could buy. And before he even became a teenager, Dusko was already fluent in Italian, German, and French, as well, of course, as his native Serbian.

SPEAKER_04:

I can relate to that.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you are you are fluent in several languages, aren't you now?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

How's your Serbian?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh uh good, thank you. See?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, sorry, I wasn't relating to fluency in the language, I was just asking how's your Serbian? Is it still locked in your cellar?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, still down there.

SPEAKER_00:

Between the ages of twelve and sixteen, Dusko went to school in Paris. Injur. At the age of seventeen, he was sent to Yule Castle, which is a prestigious school in Surrey, England.

SPEAKER_04:

I've heard that say that's in England.

SPEAKER_00:

And he was expelled after just four months.

SPEAKER_04:

Ugh, God, what for? Smoking.

SPEAKER_00:

No, because one of the teachers there, even though he was seventeen himself, one of the teachers there decided they were going to give him the cane, and he thought, I'm not having that. So he snatched the cane off the teacher and snapped it in two before he could be beaten with it. And for that, he was expelled.

SPEAKER_04:

They were rebellion then.

SPEAKER_00:

By 18, he was back in Serbia and enrolled to study a degree in law at the University of Belgrade. Now over the next four years he became irregular in the city's cafes, clubs and bars. Dus Dusko Popov wasn't just an everyday law student.

SPEAKER_04:

Really?

SPEAKER_00:

He's now grown into a handsome, erudite, well-groomed, green-eyed walking-talking sex magnet attracting the gaze of everyone in the room.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I can I can relate to that as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when I everyone gazes at me when I walk into a room. But then I sometimes I never check my flies and up.

SPEAKER_00:

I was gonna say that's probably because your flies are undone. Yeah. And you've got gr got gravy down your front. But yeah, older old Dusko Popov was well turned out, well dressed, extremely handsome, able to converse on many different subjects. He had the he had the kind of reputation that preceded him, whispered with a mix of awe and envy. He was Neil. Yeah. He was a true ladies' man.

SPEAKER_04:

Was he?

SPEAKER_00:

He was. That's why I said it.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh well done.

SPEAKER_00:

By 1934, Dusko traded Belgrade for Germany.

SPEAKER_04:

Ugh. Why?

SPEAKER_00:

He went to Freiburg in Germany to study for a doctorate in law. So he was continuing, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_04:

His education was very much so.

SPEAKER_00:

He chose to go to Germany for the geography and for the language. Because he could speak fluent German, I've already established this. So you know that his he speaks fluent German, so why are you questioning it?

SPEAKER_04:

I am not questing it, see?

SPEAKER_00:

Fluent German, was that? Oh yeah, yep. But he chose it for the geography and the language and not the politics. Which turned out to be a fatal oversight.

SPEAKER_04:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

For younger.

SPEAKER_04:

A fatal oversight.

SPEAKER_00:

Just go pop off. Oh. In some ways. Germany had been a place of order and beer halls. And who? Beer halls. Like now it beer, as in the alcoholic. Yeah. Pubs then, really. And halls. Pubs. Like the Munich Beer Festival and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

But it was now, this is Germany still, right? So we're going back now to when it was 1934. Well done. Paying attention, so I just got half past seven. He found it to be the site of mass book burning, political suppression. And he found the beginnings of a systematic destruction of the Jewish population. Yes, you're not going to mention who was responsible for that.

SPEAKER_04:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

Or are we? Anyway, Dusko, initially oblivious to all this and very much ignorant of it.

SPEAKER_03:

Fair enough.

unknown:

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_03:

Just be a German thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotta do something to keep him warm, he thought. Yeah, yeah. Dusko found his senses slowly sharpened by the chilling reality of what was going on. It was at Freiburg that he met a young man named Johnny Jebson.

SPEAKER_04:

Johnny Jebson. JJ.

SPEAKER_00:

Johnny Jebson was the rich son of a shipping magnate. And he also enjoyed the Playboy lifestyle, which matched pretty much exactly with our boy Dusko.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. Well, he had a lot of girls in scantily colour outfits walking around with bunny tails.

SPEAKER_00:

More or less, the pair of them. Their friendship blossomed with a love of fast cars, late nights, and womanizing.

SPEAKER_04:

Dirty pigs.

SPEAKER_00:

So you see now why I said more or less.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

As their political heat intensified, Dusko became increasingly vocal. He watched horrified. Ahul Thank you very much. As foreign students were swayed by smooth, well rehearsed pro-Nazi propaganda.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

He realized the German debaters were handpicked party members, their arguments polished to a lethal shine. It was a fix, he said.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it is a fix.

SPEAKER_00:

And Dusko Popov hated a fixed game just as much as he now hated the Nazis.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, good lad Dusko.

SPEAKER_00:

He's a good lad, isn't it? So what what's he going to? He corners Jebbes, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_04:

He says Jebbook. When he sort this out.

SPEAKER_00:

Because Johnny Jebson was the president of Freiburg's prominent debating society.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00:

As if by coincidence, our friend Dusko persuaded him to hand over the debate topics well in advance. Armed with this intelligence, Dusko, who was now also fluent in English, became the go-to coach for the British and American students. He even stepped into the arena himself, delivering two blistering speeches arguing for democracy. How do you reckon he did the English? Do you reckon he was like for the English students?

SPEAKER_04:

Hello. Yeah, definitely. Good afternoon, chaps. This is getting to talk about democracy. Democracy.

SPEAKER_00:

And then for the Americans, hi guys.

SPEAKER_04:

Hi fives, everyone.

SPEAKER_00:

Whoop.

SPEAKER_04:

They would with literally everything, the Americans.

SPEAKER_00:

Woo! In the summer of 1937.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's nearly twenty to eight now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko finally finished his doctoral thesis. He was packing his bags to leave Freiburg when his apartment door is kicked down by the Gestapo.

SPEAKER_04:

Was it?

SPEAKER_00:

It was. I don't just say these things for fun.

SPEAKER_04:

They took Just Deep to another level, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think they were delivering him anything. The Gestapo accused him of being a communist. Dusko was dragged off to prison with no formal charges and no trial. Just iron bars and a stone cell.

SPEAKER_04:

That's not fair.

SPEAKER_00:

His charm and good looks were utterly useless in there. So there was no female staff. So you just be aware of yourself, young man, because you might have the charm and good looks on the outside, but if you were to find yourself in a prison it could become your worst trait. In eight terrifying days, this ladies' man was just a number.

SPEAKER_04:

What number was it?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's let's pick one. Well, we're gonna tie it to seven. So let's say he was number seventy seven.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Good lad.

SPEAKER_00:

Good lad, yeah, we'll call it that. On the outside though, so while Dusko is in his little cell there thinking, oh no, well, I've got here's iron bars and and stone wall cell. On the outside Johnny Jebson had contacted Dusko's father.

SPEAKER_04:

Influential man.

SPEAKER_00:

The Elder Popov pulled strings that reached all the way to the Yugoslav Prime Minister, who in turn raised the issue with none other than Hermann Goring.

SPEAKER_02:

Heard of it.

SPEAKER_00:

The second most powerful man in the whole Reich.

SPEAKER_04:

Second only to Adolf Hitler?

SPEAKER_00:

The door eventually clanked open and Dusko was freed.

SPEAKER_04:

Yay!

SPEAKER_00:

But he was under threat that he had to leave Germany within 24 hours never to return.

SPEAKER_04:

How'd they know he went?

SPEAKER_00:

They kicked him out.

SPEAKER_04:

They follow him.

SPEAKER_00:

He didn't want to run about, did he? Oh he wasn't gonna chance his arm.

SPEAKER_04:

I suppose he just got over the board and then turned around and went, Oh told, just so they couldn't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, then ran off.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, then ran off.

SPEAKER_00:

He collected his belongings and immediately boarded a train for Switzerland.

SPEAKER_04:

As you would. Tobron's good.

SPEAKER_00:

Has the locomotive hissed to a stop in Basel?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko stepped onto the platform and guess who was standing there waiting for him?

SPEAKER_04:

JJ.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Good old Johnny Jebson.

SPEAKER_04:

Good old boy.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko couldn't believe it when his friend told him what he had done for him. So he said, if you're ever in need of any assistance, you need only to ask.

SPEAKER_04:

Was it steamy when they'd come out of the train and they ran to each other along the platform?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you mean by steamy? Do you mean actual steam from the train? Or do you mean steamy as in the sexual tension in the air?

SPEAKER_04:

It could have been a little bit of that, but I'm more about the steam coming from the engine.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I imagine so then, yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I don't think they were loosening their clothing or throwing it behind them.

SPEAKER_04:

No. Running slowly to each other.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

In February 1940, so we are on 20 to 8 now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko returned to the sun-drenched chores of Dubrovnik.

SPEAKER_04:

Don't blame him.

SPEAKER_00:

Modern day Croatia and began practicing law.

SPEAKER_04:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

But a man like. Well, you thought he'd be pretty good at it, because he's got his degree and he's got his doctorate. I don't know, but he's having to practice. Who knows? But a man like Dusko Popov doesn't outrun destiny, Neil.

SPEAKER_04:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

Bit like yourself.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Face up to it. Get on with it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, he doesn't outrun destiny because that was his destiny that we're going to talk about. Okay. You can't outrun destiny because you just can't run. So that's it.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, there is that.

SPEAKER_00:

In February nineteen forty, so twenty twenty, the sheltered routine of his law practice was shattered by a cryptic message.

SPEAKER_04:

Crosswords.

SPEAKER_00:

Johnny Jebson needed to meet him at the Hotel Serbian King in Belgrade.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, that wasn't uh very coded, was it?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's all you know. He didn't know anymore.

SPEAKER_04:

He didn't sort of put it in a code just to work it out. It literally told everyone if anyone if like the postman read it, it'd be like, oh, no where he's going, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well he phoned him.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh right.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko Popov told his colleagues that he needed to pop off. Yeah. See him.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it doesn't happen by accident. This this is gold. Then traveled to Belgrade. There he found his old friend transformed.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00:

Optimus Prime. He was now true he was now a lorry.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, he walked past him probably and then he turned back into a person. He's like, oh you buggy you.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh you're you're a one.

SPEAKER_04:

That was a good one. Well done.

SPEAKER_00:

But old Johnny, the reckless, high-spirited young man, was now a chain smoking, handshaking, nervous wreck. He was managing his family's shipping empire and said he desperately needed a Yugoslav shipping license to dodge the tightening Allied naval blockade near the crucial port of Trieste. Dusko, bound by that old debt, agreed to help him get one.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But JJ had a far more explosive confession. He hadn't just joined the family business, he said. He'd also joined the German military intelligence service, the Abva.

SPEAKER_04:

They won the University of Sun contest, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, they did.

SPEAKER_04:

He was in that, was he?

SPEAKER_00:

They were in there. He was he was the bearded one, at least played the the keyboards. Oh, okay. I thought everyone knew that. No. Oh, okay. Johnny Jebson, the anti-Nazi rabble rouser, was now an operative a forcher or researcher. But you'd know that because you speak Flement German. Jebson claimed it was a necessary evil, a way to use his business trips as a cover to avoid the ultimate horror, which would have been otherwise a conscription into the German army. His confession was shocking. It was confusing, but it was, as Dusko instantly realised, an opportunity. He wasted no time and immediately sought out a man named Clement Hope.

SPEAKER_04:

There's a lot of hope in that, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00:

Clement Hope was the passport control officer at the British Legation in Yugoslavia.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And was probably thinking his life was so much easier now because he was only doing passport control for Yugoslavia.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Not not that great bigger two way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But the passport control officer at the British Legation in Yugoslavia was the known doorway to an organization you may have heard of. Well MI6.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I've heard of those.

SPEAKER_00:

You've heard of MI6?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Because I worked for them in the past.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, you're not supposed to say that out loud.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, it's all right. Damn, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

They are your espionagers.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, they are, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00:

Your spies.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Good old Clement Hope didn't hesitate. He saw the Playboy, the traveller, the well connected lawyer, and the perfect instrument for the secret war. Dusko Popov was instantly recruited as a double agent, with Jebson prepared to make the necessary introductions in Berlin. Together they would siphon German secrets back to the British. Dusko was given the code name Scoot.

SPEAKER_02:

Scoot.

SPEAKER_00:

But eventually he would become known to his handlers as Tricycle.

SPEAKER_04:

Tricycle.

SPEAKER_00:

You might not when I tell you why he was renamed Tricycle.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because there's strong evidence to suggest that he was given the code name because of his appeal to the ladies and his particular fondness of the odd manage etwa here and there.

SPEAKER_04:

Eight at three.

SPEAKER_00:

I'll talk to you off now, Neil. It's gonna be easier. I'll explain what that is to you later.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I'll get some glove puppets and I'll run you through. Hope's instruction to tricycle was simple.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Cooperate with Jebson and play the Germans at their game. Which is a good job that he was Serbian and not English because he'd have lost on penalties, wouldn't he?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, would have done, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But there he was. On the adverse payroll, his code name Ivan. Ivan. So that's what they were calling him.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because they've got no sense of humour.

SPEAKER_04:

They've got no imagination either, have they?

SPEAKER_00:

No. I mean we could try to call because he was there.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What he was doing. Muskow moved to London, establishing a front as an international import-export businessman. This provided the perfect cover for his visits to the spy capital of Europe. Do you know what that was?

SPEAKER_04:

Spy Capital of Europe. During the Second World War. Second World War? Somewhere in Switzerland. No. Paris. Belgrade.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_04:

You're just gonna shout out to Yeah, you're just gonna keep going until you say yes. Copenhagen. No. Madrid.

SPEAKER_00:

No, so you've gone with Paris, you've gone with Copenhagen, you've gone with Belgrade, all of which of course were under Nazi control.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You're getting closer with Madrid.

SPEAKER_04:

How am I? Lisbon.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh now Yes. Oh I can edit that, can't I? So it looks like you just nailed that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So the the spy capital of Europe at that time was neutral Lisbon. In Portugal, not to be confused with Lisburn in Northern Ireland, because you looked a bit of a fool if you turned up there.

SPEAKER_04:

Lisbon on his own, wouldn't he?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. He was in this is in Lisbon in Portugal. A weekly civilian air service linked the UK to Lisbon, which is rather handy. And it was there, in the gilded cafes and discreet hotels, that Dusco would meet with his German hampers, feeding them a steady diet of MI6 approved half true intelligence necessary to keep the Germans smiling and unsuspecting.

SPEAKER_04:

That's a lot to keep Germans smiling.

SPEAKER_00:

Well it does take a lot, don't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You have to keep giving them a a brat verst.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_00:

I fear the verst. That was worth it, wasn't it? For his services, Dusko was exceptionally well paid by both sides. So he was cleaning it in, but the true value wasn't the cash, it was the assignments the German intelligence services gave to him. They were gold mines for the British, revealing enemy priorities and military thinking. Dusko Popov was a legend in the making, a man of lethal effectiveness. A bit like yourself again, Neil, really.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

From London to Lisbon, he was famous for his playboy lifestyle, exquisite tastes, green eyed charm, and his casual excess, all while carrying out the most perilous missions of wartime espionage.

SPEAKER_04:

Well done.

SPEAKER_00:

His dude, isn't he?

SPEAKER_04:

His dude.

SPEAKER_00:

The Germans invaded Belgrade in Yugoslavia in April nineteen forty one and quickly took the Popov family hostage. What? In doing so they believed they well and truly owned their most valuable asset. But the British knew he was simply priceless. Yes. And both sides knew it was all propped up by Johnny Jebson, just a little fortia.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, little fortia.

SPEAKER_00:

Free of suspicion. Or so he thought.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00:

In nineteen forty one, Dusko Popoff had just delivered his most vital piece of intelligence of the war to date, gift wrapped and presented to the US Navy. Ooh. Yeah, more or less. The Germans, through Jebson, had ordered Dusko to travel to Hawaii and procure detailed schematics of a naval base by the name of Pearl Harbor. It was a kind of surgical precision that could only lead for a devastating air attack. Dusko made contact with the FBI, laying the entire plan bare with a suave and flappable manner, explained to the Americans how the Japanese were planning to strike Pearl Harbor, and he even gave them a date of August twelfth, nineteen forty-one.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. So he should have put some clothes on when he did it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I meant laid the entire plan bare. Oh, okay. Not himself. He didn't get naked.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00:

He might have done. He wasn't getting their attention.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Start doing a helicopter impression in front of the window or something.

SPEAKER_04:

Meat swing.

SPEAKER_05:

But you still there, Neil? I'm just about yes. Hello, Neil. Hello.

SPEAKER_00:

The immediate threat wasn't coming from the air. The immediate threat was sitting behind a mahogany desk in Washington. Uh-huh. You ever heard of a man by the name of J. Edgar Hoover?

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I do, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

He was director and founder of the FBI. MI6 sent a clear notice that Tricycle, who was Dusco, was a certified double agent, a priceless asset working for the Allies under German cover.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But J. Edgar Hoover didn't care for British assurances. He saw the Immaculate Suits, Serbian Rogue, the man women seemed unable to resist, and he smelt deceit.

SPEAKER_04:

Did he?

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think he could have been a bit jealous?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The intelligence was filed, or perhaps worse, buried. Decades later, Dusko would recall his meeting with the FBI, and the chilling realization that his warnings of a colossal impending disaster was simply ignored.

SPEAKER_02:

Really?

SPEAKER_00:

Hoover's distrust turned into outright hostility when Dusko bought one of his lovers, who was a beautiful, glamorous French film actress called Simone Simon.

SPEAKER_04:

Simon Simon.

SPEAKER_00:

Her parents must have been up all night. Oh Mrs. Simon. What should we call our daughter? Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, if it was a boy, I'd have called it Simon, so stick an E at the end of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that would have been S. Simon.

SPEAKER_04:

No. Stick an E at the end of it. Simone Simon. Crevice.

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko bought one of his lovers, a beautiful, glamorous French film actress called Simone Simon. I already explained this, Neil.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

From New York State to Florida.

SPEAKER_04:

Nice. That's part of the world.

SPEAKER_00:

At which point the FBI pounced. Hoover didn't use espionage laws, he used the MAN Act, a statute against transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes. It was a vicious petty threat. Get out or I'll ruin you.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm an idiot.

SPEAKER_00:

So Dusko left the US with his intelligence unused.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Even though he'd handed them a new and ultimately accurate date for the attack on Pearl Harbor, which had been pushed back to December of that year. So they had it. They could have stopped Pearl Harbor.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know what that would have meant to the war, because the Americans had come in. Well they probably would, because they knew that they were under attack from the world.

SPEAKER_04:

It would have stopped Terravo, and it probably would have stopped Hiroshima.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, ultimately. However, Duskow's greatest triumph was still to come. And it changed the course of the whole war. By 1944, he was a crucial player in something called Operation Fortitude.

SPEAKER_04:

I've heard of that.

SPEAKER_00:

The objective was to convince Hitler's high command that the inevitable Allied invasion, D Day, would strike at Calais, not the actual target, which was Normandy.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So this is do you know Operation Mint'Meat? Was that the one when they got a corpse and they put all papers on its body?

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

They the the Allies got a corpse of a homeless person, I believe, and they decided that what they'd do, they'd drop it in the ocean in uniform, with some information in its pockets about the planned invasion of Calais, which all fed into this other subterfuge that was going on with Dusco. And basically t to convince the Joymans that we were going to invade Calais and not Normandy.

SPEAKER_04:

They also, didn't they? They have a lot of inflatable like tanks and things like that they put along the coast.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, they did, and things like that.

SPEAKER_04:

So from the air, it looked like it looked like there was all the everything was all merged at one point.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So there was a whole thing going on there, a whole illusion.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Back at the opulent hotel Palacio in Lisbon, Dusko fed the Germans meticulously crafted misinformation, and our little continental cousins swallowed the bait, a fact corroborated by intercepts of high-level German communications decrypted by the codebreakers at Bletchley Park. So by this stage, we were feeding them a load of bull. They were falling for it. They didn't know that we knew they were falling for it, because Bletchley Park, they were decoding the Enigma messages that the Germans thought were unbreakable. Then came news of a shattering blow.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh go on.

SPEAKER_00:

Johnny Jebson was arrested by the Gestapo in Lisbon.

SPEAKER_04:

In Lisbon?

SPEAKER_00:

In Lisbon, even though it was neutral territory. Yeah. The British immediately panicked. They thought Will Jebson crack under torture, was tricycle now compromised. All vital intelligence to Dusko ceased. And he was placed on ice and asset too hot to touch. So all of a sudden he was just frozen out of everything.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But German intelligence still believed in their man, and MICs quickly realized the game was on.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Operation Fortitude worked like a dream. Germany held their crucial reserves at Calais, waiting for an attack that never came. And the D Day Normandy landings were a success.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

They weren't a walk in the park by any means.

SPEAKER_04:

Hell of a lot worse, should I say? Hell of a lot worse.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, but that was the full weight of the German army waiting for him at Normandy. Most of the German army are off at Calais.

SPEAKER_04:

I cannot see them through my telescope. That's German. He said I cannot see them through my telescope.

SPEAKER_00:

I was gonna ask you to translate because I didn't understand the German. But I don't speak these languages, you see. Thank you. Also have the listener, don't whether can you speak German, the listener? I'm glad Neil's here to translate when he does.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But victory, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Still there.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm just here.

SPEAKER_00:

Victory came at a terrible price.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh. For R2P.

SPEAKER_00:

For Dusko. Because news filtered through that Johnny Jebson had been brutally executed by the Nazis.

SPEAKER_04:

They're gits, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00:

Dusko was devastated. Yes, they've they're famously were gits. Yes. I think that was probably what they're most famous for, the the the Nazis. Dusko was devastated. He played his game perfectly, saved thousands of lives, and yet the only man he truly trusted was gone, sacrificed for the very deception they had perfected. Yeah. He was a hero, he was a survivor, but now he was alone.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Poor boy.

SPEAKER_00:

The war was ending, but for Dusko Popoff the most dangerous game was about to begin. He held the secrets of the Allied victory, and he held the shame of Hoover's failure. And he knew that in peacetime, men who knew too much rarely lived to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02:

Really?

SPEAKER_00:

Who would come for him first? The Germans seeking revenge or the Americans seeking silence.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. Who do you think? Possibly the Americans because of a Pearl Arbor thing.

SPEAKER_00:

The answer?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Neither of them. Doskopov didn't die until 1981, at the ironic age of 69.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. Why is it ironic?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, give it his little sporting background.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh yes, sorry, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

He was described as an intelligent, cultured man, and he charmed most people who came into contact with him. Anyways, Neil, right? Hello, Neil. Oh T V. Why? Oh why, oh, why oh, why? Are we choosing to dedicate an entire honourable mentions episode to Dusko Popov? He's already done some incredible things.

SPEAKER_04:

He has, isn't he? Wonderful things.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's not his wartime heroics that makes him worthy of an honourable mention. Instead, it was something you did during the war, just before the Abva flew him out to Hawaii. Something that to him at least was completely unremarkable. One evening, dressed in a perfectly tailored black dinner jacket and bow tie, Dusko was playing Baccarat in the Esther All Casino just outside of Lisbon.

SPEAKER_04:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, as you'd know, Baccarat is a card game.

SPEAKER_04:

I didn't know that name. I thought it was a singer or a composer.

SPEAKER_00:

You're thinking of those two ladies who sung Yes Sir I can boogie. I think they were called Bacara or something like that.

SPEAKER_04:

I was thinking about Bert Baccarac.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh Bert Baccarak?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Bert Backache. Yes. Yes, of course. He did rain drops a falling on my head.

SPEAKER_04:

That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And all sorts of things, didn't he? Walk on by. What do you get when you fall in love?

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Tommy's gone.

SPEAKER_04:

No, that's perfect, thank you. I'm nearly asleep now.

SPEAKER_00:

So one evening, dressed in a perfectly tailored black dinner jacket and bow tie, Dusko was playing Baccharat in the Esther Old Casino just outside of Lisbon.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The game was heading to a conclusion, and Dusko, already drawing a lot of attention because he was Dusko, made an extravagant bet to either lose a small fortune or destroy his Nazi opponent.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

The room gasped. Dusko Popov remained unflustered. Yeah. The cards were turned. Yeah. And Dusko had won.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

Because newly had.

SPEAKER_00:

Danikoff, said the German.

SPEAKER_04:

Did they?

SPEAKER_00:

I should imagine. That's my Germanist.

SPEAKER_04:

That's very good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I thought so. For him, like I say, this was nothing special. This is the sort of thing Dusko did most of the time, just to kill a few hours in the evening. But for a British intelligent officer looking on, a seed of an idea began to form in his mind. Okay. That officer was Commander Ian Fleming.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

And the seed of an idea eventually blossomed into the world's most Famous secret agent.

SPEAKER_02:

Inspector Gadget.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh no, sorry. Double O seven.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Double O seven himself. James Bond. James Bond. Wow. Dang, glang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, glang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, glang, dang, dang, dang, that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Fleming knew Dusko Popov well. And was involved in setting up some of the espionage operations he carried out. He he admired Dusko's lifestyle his way with people, especially women.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And his cleaning out of Nazi agents at the gambling tables in neutral Portugal. The high-stakes Baccarat game is most likely to have formed the basis of Casino Royale, his debut James Bond novel. However, it is recognized there is no one source of inspiration for Bond. Fleming drew on several characters, his own imagination, and even some of his own exploits. But the suave, sophisticated, immaculately dressed, good-looking lover of the finer things in life, secret agent Dusko Popov is certainly a large part of the man we see on the screen, a real life, James Bond.

SPEAKER_02:

Howie.

SPEAKER_00:

And this listener, if you're still there and you are paying attention, and for you as well, Neil. Hello, Neil.

SPEAKER_04:

Hello, Stephen.

SPEAKER_00:

And for you there, Neil. I said at the start, didn't I? This is episode seven. And we'll try and do something that links into episode seven. And I've come up with double O seven. Well done. It's almost like this stuff happens by accident, but it doesn't. There's a lot of hard work under the surface. Oh no. So there you go. The real inspiration for James Bond was a Serbian by the name of Dusko Popov.

SPEAKER_04:

And he did all that through the war as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. What a man.

SPEAKER_00:

What a fella.

SPEAKER_04:

Good looking, suave, sophisticated, yeah, I can relate to all that.

SPEAKER_00:

He liked fast cars. He knew all his wines and his whiskies and all that sort of stuff. But Dusko did say that one thing that he doesn't agree that he was anything like for the James Bond inspiration was he believed James Bond was an alcoholic. If he was a real person.

SPEAKER_04:

If he was a real person.

SPEAKER_00:

Just because if you'd drunk that much, you wouldn't be an effective spy because you'd be falling over yourself. Yeah, if you're trying to be so above and sophisticated, you can't Well, as we said earlier, of course, you walking into a cafe or a restaurant and attracting everyone's gaze because your lies are undone, you've got gravy down your shirt, and your shirt's untocked.

SPEAKER_04:

James Bon Pro wouldn't sell so much of us like that, would it?

SPEAKER_00:

No, people wouldn't be queuing round the corner of the cinema house. Well, that's enough of our goings on. Dear listener, thank you for joining us yet again. Next week we'll be bringing you a brand new episode as we approach the period we call Christmas.

SPEAKER_03:

Ho ho ho Until then, do have yourselves a good week and listen to Honourable Mentions Bye Bye bye Ding Ding ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_04:

Why are you walking stylewise and turn it to turning? There you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_01:

Bye then. Bye. The name's Bond. Not that one, but a totally unrelated non-copyright infringement bond. Taken, but not stirred. I'm here to thank you for listening to yet more builds from those honorable mentions, boys. You know, MI6 has them piped in to break prisoners in interrogation. Remarkably effective. 20 minutes. And they can't take any more. So thank you. Your support means a lot to them in the country. Please keep the podcast, going by liking, subscribing, and sharing, and don't forget to leave us like the review. Most important ideas. If you can believe it. Steven Web. It is an uncle broader production. And the thing too by PPA independent. I could make my thing too. Thank you. Or it's a new script.