Honourable Mentions

Fred Kroll: The Man Who Ate Up The 1970's Toy Market

• Steve and Neil Webb • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Fred Kroll was a native New Yorker, the grandson of Belarussian immigrants, a second world war veteran, and a genius in the world of toys and games. 

In 1978, his latest invention caught the toy business by surprise and more than held its own against that year's Christmas must haves: Star Wars, Barbie, Skateboards, Speak & Spell, and the new wave of electronic gaming. 

If you're familiar with Homer, Henry, Harry and Lizzie, then this is the episode for you, or maybe you just want to learn the history of one the bestselling games of all time. One that's still going strong today. 

Listen quick because there's still time to ask Santa Claus to leave Fred Kroll's gift to the world in your Christmas stocking.

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SPEAKER_05:

Honourable Major. Hello, Neil. Hello, Stevie. How are you? Oh shush. Here's our listener. Hello, listener. How are you? Merry nearly Christmas to you, dear listener. And of course, Merry Nearly Christmas to you. Hello, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, Stevie.

SPEAKER_05:

Have you done anything nearly Christmassy?

SPEAKER_02:

Um I have. I've got all my decorations up. Have you? Did you put the tree up yourself? No, I left it in the front room.

SPEAKER_05:

Hey. I set em up, you knock 'em down.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_05:

That's the best way to go, isn't it? Wish our listener a very merry near Christmas. And today we're going to tell a Christmasish story. We will actually be having a Christmas story next week, but for today we're having a Christmas-ish story. Is this on Ching Chong Ching Ching Ching Ching Ching?

SPEAKER_02:

Honourable mentions. That was Santa's Bells.

SPEAKER_05:

Was it? That was very good.

unknown:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

That was very good. Today we're going to talk about the Zenith, the apex uh the peak of human civilization.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright.

SPEAKER_05:

So that's already set you up, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

It has, yes.

SPEAKER_05:

And to do that, we need to travel back in time to nineteenth century Belarus. Oh yes. Now Belarus in the nineteenth century. In fact, I can be more specific, I can tell you that we're talking about the year 1896.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Is that the is that the buzz?

SPEAKER_05:

No, that's the year 1896. Four years before the year 1900. And a hundred and four years before the year two thousand.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, that was quick maths.

SPEAKER_05:

Let's all meet up in the year two thousand.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

That was a song by the pulpes.

SPEAKER_02:

It was, yes. Mr. Conker.

SPEAKER_05:

Pardon? You've done what?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh sorry, yeah. I've gone off I've gone off on a tangent then.

SPEAKER_05:

I thought you needed to rearrange something.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

You constable?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm alright now, thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

You're alright now. Okay. So in 1896, in your Belarus, your aforementioned Belarus, a lady called Ethel Kral left her home. Ethel Kroll. Are you saying that properly, please? I am saying that properly because it's Kilo, Romeo, Oscar, Lima, Lima.

SPEAKER_02:

And that roll with a K in the start of it.

SPEAKER_05:

And that was your phonetic alphabet, listener.

SPEAKER_02:

Well done.

SPEAKER_05:

So yes, Ethel Kroll left a home in Vilmius.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yes, no, that's quite well.

SPEAKER_05:

Near Minsk.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

But she wasn't just leaving a home to go to the shops. She wasn't on her way to Tesco or anything like that. No, Ethel Kroll was leaving to join her husband, Barnett, known to all as Barney. Barnet? Yeah, but it's known to all as Barney. Barnet Kroll. No, but Barney Kroll is how he went. He'd established himself in a little village in the USA by the name of New York.

SPEAKER_01:

Stephen, that's not a village.

SPEAKER_05:

What's that?

SPEAKER_01:

New York.

SPEAKER_05:

New York it is.

SPEAKER_02:

It isn't.

SPEAKER_05:

It is, because the York, right? York is in the north of England, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a city.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And this is the New York.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's like It's still a city, Stephen. Is it? Yes, not a village.

SPEAKER_05:

It wasn't when I went, there was a place called the Village when I went.

SPEAKER_02:

Name dropping again.

SPEAKER_05:

Clang in New York, there's a village. Anyways, enough of this idle banter. Let's go on with the story. She didn't just leave, as we say, to Tesco, she was on her way to the US of States, and with her she had her three sons, twelve-year-old Simon. Now you're gonna have to pay attention here because it can get confusing. We've already met Barney, whose actual name is Barnett. So she took three sons with her, twelve-year-old Simon, who for some reason was known as Sam. Eight-year-old Henry, who was known as Harry, and five year old Charles, known as Charlie, which makes more sense. What's all the point of that? I just want to just call him Sam. Well, let's just call her kid Sam. Why do you call it Simon? I would name it Sam.

SPEAKER_02:

But then again, we'll just call him Sam.

SPEAKER_05:

Prince Harry, his name is actually Henry, isn't it? Then you got the same Henry. No idea. Lots of people get called I don't know why, if you're posh. Anyway, that's what they did.

SPEAKER_02:

Well your name's Steve, but you're actually a dick.

SPEAKER_05:

I hope the listener is already typing away furiously at their keyboard to unrob or mentionspod at gmail.com, not only to complain about the use of the language, but to defend me, as I'm sure they are. Anyways, right, this is the Kroll family we're talking about here. You're still there, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, still there, thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

They couldn't travel in the open because Russia, of which Belarus was part, was full of anti-Jewish sentiment and even massacres. So these people uh were Jewish. I'll take that. That was good. So their journey saw them trek through remote fields across rivers and sneak into villages. So this is at a time when Russia was carrying out what's called pogroms. Pogrums. Pogroms, which was the systematic seeking out and slaying of Jewish people. So they decided we're not hanging around here, waiting for this. So that's not at all a pleasant thing, really. So that's what was going on in that area at that time. So of course the Krell family thought I should cocoa.

SPEAKER_02:

They're probably thinking, we better get out of air, Bow. We're we're out of air sunshine. Yeah, well, our toes is one.

SPEAKER_05:

They were thinking, Barn is already in US estates.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, let's go and see him. Or they said, let's go see him.

SPEAKER_05:

Because they weren't allowed to travel through open areas, they didn't want to stand out too much. What they did, they trepped through remote fields, rode across rivers, and snuck into villages where friendly people gave them shelter for the night. The family eventually arrived in Hamburg, which is in New G that's in New Germany.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Where they made the after the name the the food from the beef burger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Hamburger.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

The hot dog or the pizza?

SPEAKER_02:

Hamburger. Idiot.

SPEAKER_05:

Hambur oh yeah, of course. The family arrived in Hamburg. We've already discussed this if you were paying attention.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

On a Friday morning and stayed for Shabbat, which is Saturday. Holy day. Shabbat. Shabbat. It's their holiday holiday. And on Sunday morning, June the fourteenth, eighteen ninety-six, so it was still in the year eighteen ninety-six, they boarded the boat SS Patria. Patria. Patria. That'd be even better. Yeah, and that's pronounced property.

SPEAKER_02:

That's more posted, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

It's pronounced properly now. Thank you for that. Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

You're welcome. You're welcome, Stevie.

SPEAKER_05:

For the voyage, they were crammed into steerage with no natural light or fresh air. Now steerage is your lowest of your lowest tickets.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not the where the steering word is in.

SPEAKER_05:

No, no, that's on the bridge.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh.

SPEAKER_05:

They don't let them steer the boat. Your lowest of your lowest tickets aren't a free ride to come on and steer the boat. That's not how they sell the tickets, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, fair enough. That's perhaps why I got chucked out when I was on the cruising.

SPEAKER_05:

Probably. They said you're in steerage and you thought, cheers, thank you. Pass me that hat. I'll be needing that. That's what you said. So for the voyage they were crammed into steerage with no natural light or fresh air, and shared the tiny room with another family who took the top bunk. As for the crolls, they took the lower bunk. So there's the mum and the three boys, all on this lower bunk bed. And above them there's a family of an unknown size, but they are a family. All on the one c or on one bunk bed as well. And they survived on a diet of herring and potatoes. Because in steerage you didn't get food or anything either.

SPEAKER_02:

You just had to catch what you could catch out the side of the boat.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I I think potatoes are quite rare at sea.

SPEAKER_02:

Never heard of a sea potato. No, what do they look like? Well, I I quite often go to Tesco's and sea potato.

SPEAKER_05:

They eventually arrived in the US of States during afternoon of Friday, June the nineteenth, eighteen ninety-six.

SPEAKER_02:

So it was a long journey then, but not too bad. Not too bad. Friday to Friday.

SPEAKER_05:

Friday to Friday, but you're crammed into this tiny little room with another family, no washing facilities, all you're eating is herring and potatoes, which must be boiling on top. Well, I was going to say that, see, because no matter how desperate they were to get out, they managed to avoid Northampton and went straight to the USA.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Do you think the um SS Patria went to Northampton for its first embarkment and people thought, Well, I'm still staying. If this turns around and takes me home, I'm I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Rather than this. In the the River Nen, as they call it, and the rest of the world says Neen, 'cause they can't even talk properly. There they were. They avoided Northampton, give that a swerve, stayed on their herring and potatoes, and ended up in the USA on Friday, June 19th, 1896, in Hoboken, New Jersey. Okay. Now who's the most famous person ever to come out of Hoboken, New Jersey?

SPEAKER_02:

Barack Obama.

SPEAKER_05:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh. Elton John. Stevie Wonder.

SPEAKER_05:

The answer is Fly me to the moon. Let me swing among the stars.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry, is that supposed to be in tune? Yeah, Frank Sinatra.

SPEAKER_05:

Frank Sinatra. He came from Hoboken.

SPEAKER_02:

Did he?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I think the the town was named after a homeless person called Kenneth, who was Hoboken.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's where the name came from.

SPEAKER_02:

That's fair enough, isn't it? It's nice to name a town after him.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah. But from Hoboken, from there, they were transported by ferry to Ellis Island and a reunion with Barney.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh Barnet.

SPEAKER_05:

Barnet.

SPEAKER_02:

So this is Simon Sam, Harold Henry, and Charlie. And Charlie.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And Ethel. And Barney, who turned out not to be a big purple dinosaur, which could have been quite disappointing for the younger children.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

But he he was a genuine person. Barney Kroll sold coal. Coal Kroll. Kroll coal.

SPEAKER_02:

Kroll coal.

SPEAKER_05:

Kroll coal in the winter and he sold ice in the summer.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. It's clever he did it that way round.

SPEAKER_05:

If we did it well, he probably had to test it. A B testing, they called it in marketing, don't they?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, they do, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I don't know whether in summer he walked round the streets of uh New York shouting ice ice baby at people.

SPEAKER_02:

Could have done.

SPEAKER_05:

Stop. Collaborate and listen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Ice is here with a brand new invention. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. Something's gonna hold me tightly.

SPEAKER_05:

That's it.

SPEAKER_02:

Someone like that, anyway. Carry on.

SPEAKER_05:

Do you need to readjust?

SPEAKER_02:

No. I did it earlier.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, you're still okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. So with Kol Kroll, or Col Kroll Cole, and his Ice Ice Baby Business, he was able to afford a two-room apartment on the third floor of a building in Cherry Street on the lower east side of Manhattan.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice. Nice place, that.

SPEAKER_05:

Nice place. I've never been to Cherry Street.

SPEAKER_02:

No. Nice bit of American pie.

SPEAKER_05:

This was the first time the family had lived in a place with stairs or even wooden floors.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

Because before they were on a single story dirt floor little hovel, I suppose we would call it as. Barney and Ethel didn't hang about there because their daughter, Etta, was born in 1897.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Or did they call her Dave?

SPEAKER_05:

No, their daughter Etta.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Or did they rename her Dave?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, see, you say, Oh, you are a CAD. Yes. Um Etta was born in 1897, and then Lottie in 1899. So they just got in there, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

They were like rabbits. However, the family was struck by tragedy when Etta died after falling down the stairs, they were so proud of, and she was around four years old.

SPEAKER_02:

They didn't have stairgates then.

SPEAKER_05:

It's not very good. They didn't have stairgates then, and she's the one you chose to belittle. So I hope you feel bad now.

SPEAKER_02:

Um no.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. The remaining children grew up to be respected citizens of New York.

SPEAKER_02:

New York.

SPEAKER_05:

New York. Which I I believe is no longer a village by this point. It was actually a burgeoning city. Okay. Um New York New York, however you say it. Yeah. And on the twenty-sixth of December nineteen fifteen, the twenty-four-year-old Charlie, who was Charles.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Charlie Charles. This is on Boxing Day nineteen fifteen, listener. Which gives it a bit of a Christmas bent. Twenty-four-year-old Charlie married Beatrice Lifshitz, who was twenty-three.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry. Lifchit.

SPEAKER_05:

I left a little pause there because I knew that would make you laugh because you're very immature. Beatrice Lifchitz.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry, but if you got that word in your name, you would want to get married and get it out of the way, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_05:

Lifchitz, would you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Or Beatrice.

SPEAKER_05:

Which one is it you you find amusing?

SPEAKER_02:

Um I would say well Beatrice is okay. There's lots of Beatrice down, then hello every Beatrice that's listening. Thank you for doing so. But if you've got someone with the name of Lifchit, then Yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_05:

If our listener is called Beatrice, Lif Shitz, they have well turned off by now. So we're moving on now through the years. And Charlie, you may recall, was the one who got married and was the little boy, the littlest of the little boys who came over. Charlie owned a successful business as a printer on 24th Street near the headquarters of many toy companies. Among his major customers were toy wholesalers and board game makers, as well as Playthings magazine, which may have been something Ann Summers nowadays, isn't it? I've got to say that may have been something different altogether, mightn't it? Funny, one of those early battery-operated toys.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, with ears and stuff.

SPEAKER_05:

Now Charlie and B, as she liked to be known, shared a long life. Yes. Oh yeah, we we were good friends. Okay. Cho Charlie and B shared a long life together and were blessed by the arrival of two sons. Bernard Kroll, Bernard Kroll, Bernie Kroll, on the first of May nineteen eighteen. And Frederick Kroll, whose name was changed again, and fr he was called Fred.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

So that's that's easy to follow, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

That's fair enough. The word Jason, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

No. It's Frederick Kroll Fred on the 7th of June 1921. Okay. So what's that, please, between them?

SPEAKER_02:

That's two b boys, you said.

SPEAKER_05:

Two boys, but three years in between the two boys. And when the boys grew up, they worked alongside their father and arranged Charlie. Well, then you're keeping up with this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Trying to.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Their father, Charlie. And this arrangement was only broken by the onset of the Second World War, which is rather inconvenient.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And upset upset a lot of people's plans around that time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Now Fred served in the US Army Signal Corps in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_02:

Didn't say very well, didn't he?

SPEAKER_05:

And why do you say that, please?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, so it happened in Hawaii, didn't it? Didn't give much signals out, did they?

SPEAKER_05:

And what was that, please? Stephen, come on. Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor. Well, Pearl Harbor really brought the Americans into the war, didn't it? So he wouldn't have had to serve in the Second World War in Hawaii until after Pearl Harbor, would it?

SPEAKER_02:

Well that's perhaps why they brought him in, because no one signalled the pretty planes coming in, did they?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, exactly. So they got uh got him on there, didn't they, on Fred? And his mates in the Hawaiian ship. Yeah, you need to look out for that. And actually from there, they took a lot of the signals and relayed a lot of the signals out to the US across the world, US troops. So he was doing quite an important job there, although not front facing, obviously. But Bernard, Bernard, or Bernie, he joined the Third Armoured Division, working all his way up to first lieutenant or lieutenant, as we would say, because we can speak properly. Yeah, not like what they can. But sadly, on the 22nd of January 1945. So this is getting towards the end. Right near the end. Right near the end now. Bernard, Bernard Burney, was killed in action at the Battle of the Bulge. What do you know about the Battle of the Bulge, please, Neil?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh it was an attack with tanks.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, a battle yes, where the battle of tanks, wasn't it? Where the Allied troops tried to push through German front, didn't they?

SPEAKER_02:

And pushed them back.

SPEAKER_05:

Why was it called the Battle of the Bulge?

SPEAKER_02:

Because they pushed them back and made them go into like a we were in a sort of like bubble shape as we pushed them back and made a bulge in their in their line.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, if you were to imagine the front as a physical line drawn on a map, then it it would have had a bulge in it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

So yes, well done. You know quite a lot about this, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. I'm pretty good on bulges.

SPEAKER_05:

You are, obviously. So poor old Bernard was was killed there in the Battle of the Bulge, which was Germany's last great offensive on the Western Front and the largest engagement ever fought by the US Army. So it's a bit of a bit of a deal, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Bernard died in Belgium just three days before the end of that battle.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Less than four months later, Germany surrendered to Allied forces.

SPEAKER_01:

If any of the new.

SPEAKER_05:

If only yeah, I mean that's terrible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And the sad thing is, as well, there'd have been thousands, tens of thousands of people killed in that four months.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

German forces as well that were going to surrender in four months' time. Terrible, isn't it, really? What a waste. What a waste. Charlie B. and Fred were devastated, as you would be, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

We would be, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_05:

You would be. Oh Bernie Bernard Bernard. In nineteen forty seven, at the age of fifty-six, Charlie decided to sell his business to one of his major customers. And take early retirement. This chap was called Jack Pressman.

SPEAKER_02:

Never heard of him.

SPEAKER_05:

Of course you have.

SPEAKER_02:

Pressman Toy Corporation. That's all I said, I haven't never heard of them.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, Jack Pressman had grown up working in his father's variety store in Harlem, selling school supplies, candies, sporting goods. Yeah. Basketballs, it could be, couldn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Globes, trotters, and toys.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Which sparked his interest in the toy industry. Still not familiar?

SPEAKER_02:

Nope.

SPEAKER_05:

In nineteen twenty-two he founded J Pressman Co., which made and sold all sorts of crafts, games and activities.

SPEAKER_02:

Still no.

SPEAKER_05:

As early as nineteen thirty-seven, Pressman began seeing the value of licensing popular characters and matching them with new or existing products. Okay. So for example, he had some crayon sets, as you would do being a toy manufacturer and retailer in nineteen thirty-seven. And he slapped Snow White, the Disney Snow White on there. Why did he do that? Having well, he didn't slap Snow White. He just slapped the image of Snow White having licensed it from Disney onto his crayon pants.

SPEAKER_02:

He didn't just walk up to Snow. And he's probably out, but these days you can't do things like that. No, you couldn't just walk up to Snow White and punch her out, could you? I'm going to Disney, although they're all gonna walk up to Snow White and slap her.

SPEAKER_05:

He also sold Snow White cutout dolls in nineteen thirty eight. And little little orphan Annie bubble pipes in nineteen thirty-seven. Okay. He was also one of the pioneers of using injection moulding machines to produce plastic pats.

SPEAKER_02:

Why would he put pie in his ears?

SPEAKER_05:

I see where you're coming from there. That's another one of your your witty little remarks, you tinker.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I see.

SPEAKER_05:

He was one of the pioneers of using injection moulding machines to produce plastic parts. Pressman was known as a man of impeccable taste and worldly knowledge.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's nicer, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

Bit like myself. He was an astute businessman. Oh, sorry about that. You okay there?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I just jugged on both.

SPEAKER_05:

He was an astute businessman, loyal, honest, caring, and sharp. So whether that meant he could cut paper.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, could do. Using his thumb. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

He was also a great teacher and mentored many legendary toy professionals, amongst them one Fred Kroll. As part of the sale to Jack Pressman, Fred, who was a natural born salesman, went to work for Jack Pressman. In 1948, he married Betty Gloria Kahn, whom he'd met in October the year before on a blind date at Coney Island, which was set up by a mutual friend. At the time, Fred was dating Gladys Sallas.

SPEAKER_01:

Gladys Sallas.

SPEAKER_05:

Gladys Sallas, she she rhymed, and she was the niece of famous US comedian George Burns.

SPEAKER_02:

I've heard of him.

SPEAKER_05:

George Burns, I think he died when he was about 3006, and he used to smoke a big fat cigar.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he used to suck on a large Cuban. Of course he did that offstage.

SPEAKER_05:

So, yes, there he was, right? He was engaged to or dating Gladys Sallas. I've I've bumped up his marital status there. He was dating Gladys Sallas, niece of famous US comedian George Burns, and then he was introduced to Betty Gloria Khan by a mutual friend in 1948. Two weeks later, Fred introduced Betty to his parents as the girl I'm going to marry. He knew straight away. He was smitten.

SPEAKER_02:

He did. He was smitten, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_05:

He was smitten. After their wedding, did hang about there, Fred and Betty moved to eight two oh one Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I know it quite well.

SPEAKER_05:

Now Brooklyn is part of you New York, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it's one of the boroughs.

SPEAKER_05:

It's one of your boroughs of New York. Along with Staten Island, Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx. Is that it? Is there any more? Something like that. Yeah, I can't think of any more. Neighbour. So this is one of their neighbours, okay. A neighbour remembered that the couple were very good to her family, and said Fred always had toys ready for our children. They were both very giving people. What a nice couple. However, in nineteen fifty six, after just ten years at the the Pressment Toy Corporation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Don't I say just ten years, it's quite a long time to stay with an employer. But in those days, I suppose there was jobs for life and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right, not the bags.

SPEAKER_05:

So Fred left to start his own business.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05:

Which he rather catchily called Fred Kroll Associates.

SPEAKER_02:

So Fred was Charlie's grandson, am I right? No. Fred was Charlie's son.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. He was Barney's grandson.

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. Yeah. I'm there now.

SPEAKER_05:

Barney and Ethel left.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I mean Charlie was a little boy, five years old, and they left. Fred is his son. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm there now.

SPEAKER_05:

So in 1956, after ten years, Fred stepped up his own business, Fred Carl Associates, and he and Betty moved out of the city to a grander house upstate in New Rochelle.

SPEAKER_02:

New Rochelle.

SPEAKER_05:

New Rochelle.

SPEAKER_02:

So he's doing alright, isn't he, Fred? He's doing alright, he's doing out for himself.

SPEAKER_05:

He's going up in the world.

SPEAKER_02:

He is, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Because he could afford to leave his job and then afford his own business and still move house to a bigger place upstate out of the city. Now, while representing Kona Brothers, or Kona Bros, so you want to say that, a maker of craft and preschool toys, Fred created a now classic game. At the start of this podcast listener, you may recall me saying that we're talking about the zenith, the apex and the pinnacle of human endeavour and human entertainment. This game isn't it. But it is a very, very famous game that he invented.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. So in the America, in the United States, it was called Trouble. Okay. And today, Trouble is marketed under Hasbro's Milton Bradley banner. So it's still in production today when he came up with this idea in the nineteen fifties.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright.

SPEAKER_02:

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_05:

In the UK, the game is known as something else and is famous for its pop-matic dice. What's the name of the game in the UK, please?

SPEAKER_02:

Problematic dice. Hmm. Well, there's only one. Yahtzee.

SPEAKER_05:

Yahtzee.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Does it have a problematic dice now?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I'm joking. Frustration.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's frustrating. You led me along there. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I did.

SPEAKER_05:

Frustration. It's a game he invented with his problematic dice. Trouble in the US of States. Frustration in the United of Kingdoms.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I understand that.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. By the mid-1970s, so we're progressing along even further still here.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's doing well, isn't he?

SPEAKER_05:

Fred Kroll Associates have begun licensing designs and items made by Agatsuma of Tokyo and other overseas toy companies.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

So what he was taking them and and licensing them to sell in his United States and etc. So what happened next is subject to legend and contradiction, but it led to the birth of the universal game that transcends culture and language. Stimulating intellectual challenge that improves critical thinking and problem-solving skills. Some say that on a work visit to Japan in the seventies, Fred Kroll discovered an exciting game that was being made by the Agatsuma Company. Instantly recognising its appeal, he attained the global licensing rights and later passed them on to Hasbro for a fee, obviously.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, of course he had to give it to him.

SPEAKER_05:

He's not a fool. He's a businessman, this fella.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05:

Originally Hasbro sold it under their name, but eventually switched it to their Milton Bradley band, or even Milton Bradley brand.

SPEAKER_02:

I was telling you, the Milton Bradley brand, band bland band, whatever it's go back in. It's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

You know, the Milton Brad.

SPEAKER_02:

Well it's going to change the name, couldn't he? That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05:

MB Games.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Ooh, I've heard of them.

SPEAKER_05:

Thank you. A little bit of recognition. Well, the Milton and Bradley brands were the same ones who did frustration for him and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

So I've heard of MB Games, you suggested that. Didn't put the two and two together, did I?

SPEAKER_05:

You didn't put Milton, Bradley and MB together, no? Nope. MB Games, I hope you got that listener. The company would introduce the game to United States in nineteen seventy-eight. But what actually happened was that Fred published the initial idea for the game way back in nineteen sixty seven. In nineteen seventy-seven, while in Japan, he pitched and sold the game to Agatsuma Company in Tokyo.

SPEAKER_02:

So he invented the game then?

SPEAKER_05:

He invented this game and then sold it to the Agatsuma Company in Tokyo. Again, sold it for a fee because there's nobody's call.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he's not for all, is he?

SPEAKER_05:

The game became the game became an absolute smash hit in Japan.

SPEAKER_02:

Did it?

SPEAKER_05:

And so in 1978, Fred purchased the global licensing rights back from Agatsuma, who he'd sold the original concept to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

He took the licensing rights and then sold that concept back to Hasbro, who switched it to the Milton Bradley brand. MB. MB Games.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Just in time for Christmas nineteen seventy-eight, the game was a massive success in America. Which was no small feat at the time. And I'll tell you for why if you're interested.

SPEAKER_02:

No. Yeah, they'll tell me because I'm sure the listeners will be interested.

SPEAKER_05:

The listener. Don't pluralise what we might not have, please, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, sorry, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. Hello, listener. Hope you're still with us and you're staying with this because it's it's a convoluted story to get there. Other toys you'd find on the shelves at Christmas 1978, Neil. If you remember that back far. That back far. If you remember that far back, Neil, hello Neil. Other toys you could find on the shelves that year included the first wave of new fangled electronic toys like Merlin from Parker Brothers. No, that was a bit later, that was the early eighties.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Merlin, do you remember Merlin? Simon from MB.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, remember Simon, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Play School's Alfie. No, that's not one of the ones I've got here. Stop shouting out random electronic games, please, and let me get through this.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_05:

So we've got Merlin from Parker Brothers, one of the first electronic toys to hit the shelves. Simon from Milton Bradley, PlaySchool's Alfie. Yeah. And Texas Instruments, Legendary, Speak and Spell. Ooh. So it had to compete against all those newfangled electronic games.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

This game of of Fred's. And then it ran into a juggernaut of a toy line that launched that year that was based on a very popular film or movie of the time. Would you like to guess what that juggernaut of a games line was, please?

SPEAKER_02:

Neil, hello, Neil. Hello, Stevie. Well, um back in the seventies, very juggernaughty type thing. It's got to be. It's got to be Star Wars.

SPEAKER_05:

It has got to be Star Wars. Well done, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05:

But Fred's family-friendly game more than held its own. And remember, of course, you've got all the other things that kids liked around that time as well, such as your barbies.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And your roller skates.

SPEAKER_02:

And skateboards.

SPEAKER_05:

And your bicycles and your skateboards.

SPEAKER_02:

The red hand gang used to have skateboards.

SPEAKER_05:

Do you used to do that thing in swimming at school after swimming? People used to go around. Do you want to join the red hand gang?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Why? What's that? Slap. You have a big red hand on your back or your front. Yes, very immature, of course.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Almost as immature as flicking wet towns.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Which we never engaged in.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_05:

No. But yeah, so Fred there's Fred's family game. It's holding its own. You can imagine this, can't you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I can, yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Fred's Frustration by a Milton Bradley brand, who I managed to get that out, is is still on the shelves as well. In 1978, an article for a publication called The Star Telegram. Do you get that? Is that something that you still? Joe Thomson, a manager of a department store, said it's one of those games that no one seems to have in stock. I don't think anyone was expecting the demand. They didn't think it would take off as big as it did, he said. So we've now reached a stage in our little podcast where Neil Hello, Neil, you're still there.

SPEAKER_02:

TV.

SPEAKER_05:

You're still there. Neil and the listener might like to have a little think, a little pause and a little think here. Because I'm going to ask you what was this game that Frank Frank What was that's rewinding the tape. I am going to ask you what was this game that Frank Kroll had gifted the world?

SPEAKER_02:

Family friendly. Family friendly. Family friendly. 1978. First licensed in Japan, then took back to your American. US of A State Connect 4.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, do you know what, Neil? That is a very, very good guess. And you're wrong.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

SPEAKER_05:

What about you, listener? What's that your shouting, listener? Monopoly? No, that was well before this, you fool, listener.

SPEAKER_02:

Carry on, Neil. Is there anything else you'd like to do? Um other one, stretch arm strong.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, strictly speaking, that's not a game.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, fair enough. Um, let me think. Kaplunk.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, that's another good guess, Neil. But let's remember that the initial premise Pardon? There's nothing and again, your mother might be listening to this Neil, go and wash your mouth out.

SPEAKER_01:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_05:

You m you might remember at the beginning of this podcast we spoke about the zenith, the pinnacle, the peak of all human endeavour. And it was rolled up into this game. Now, until this time, chess was seen as being the peak and intellectual intellectual zenith. I'm using the word zenith again because I have to. It was the intellectual zenith of all games until Fred Kroll's game hit the shelves. So you'd like to have one more guess.

SPEAKER_02:

One more guess. Twister.

SPEAKER_05:

No. I thought you say, listener, trivial pursuit. Well, that's a more sensible guess. But again, you're all wrong. The game was called Hungry, Hungry Hippos.

SPEAKER_02:

The pinnacle of human endeavour. Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Hungry. Hungry Hippos. It's a game of intellect. Intellect. There's not much intellect to push a button. It's a game of strategy. It's a game it hasn't just endured over the years. It has thrived, Neil. From its initial popularity in the United States, it was exported all around the world. In fact, since 2015, an annual Hungry Hungry Hippose World Championship has been held at the Indiana Convention Centre.

SPEAKER_02:

Was that for the three people that bought it?

SPEAKER_05:

It sold millions. This this game made Hasbro and Milton Bradley. I don't know what what your boy Fred sold it for, but I imagine Hasbro and Milton Bradley, or MB Games, have made a lot more money on the back of this than he did.

SPEAKER_02:

Hungry Hippos.

SPEAKER_05:

Hungry, Hungry Hippos. At the World of Winter Festival in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is again over there in the United States, there is a version of the game where participants play the roles of the hippos themselves. And another question for you here, Neil. The Guinness World Because I'm asking it. The Guinness World Record for the fastest time to clear a game of hungry hungry hippos by a team of four, so one on each hippo, is held by a Chinese team that achieved the clearance of the entire game in how long?

SPEAKER_02:

Seven seconds.

SPEAKER_05:

Lower.

SPEAKER_02:

Seven seconds.

SPEAKER_05:

Ha ha ha ha Lower, lower, lower, my love. Lower?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh four seconds.

SPEAKER_05:

Off the post. Four point eight three three seconds.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's supposed to be a fantastic achievement, is it?

SPEAKER_05:

It's a world record at the time of our recording. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Hungry Hippos. Hungry Hippos. Pinnacle of human endeavour.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Fred Kroll gave the world hungry hungry hippos. Did you know that the four hippos have names? No. The purple hippo, your favourite, was called Lizzie. The orange hippo was called Henry. The green hippo was called Homer. And the yellow hippo was called Harry. I didn't know why they couldn't come up with a female name that began with an H rather than just Lizzie.

SPEAKER_02:

Or Henrietta or Helen.

SPEAKER_05:

Over time, oh here we go. Over time Lizzie was replaced by Happy Yeah. Who wasn't purple anymore but had become pink. Probably probably happy because they were tickled pink.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And then in 2009, the hippo's names and colours were updated.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

No doubt workshop by some prick with a marketing degree and a ponytail. Here we go, you ready for this? So the colours were changed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. To more neutral pastel colours.

SPEAKER_05:

Before, originally we had purple, orange, green, and yellow, then we had pink, orange, green, and yellow.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Now we've got blue, yellow, green, and red.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_05:

The blue hippo, as well as known heal, because this is the one you insist on playing now, is called sweetie potamus.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. I know, they had to work. So I I'm the one that's fingering sweetie potamus.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes. You had to workshop this. The yellow one is called bottomless potamus. Okay. The red one is called pickypotamus, and the green one is called veggie potamus.

SPEAKER_02:

Vegie.

SPEAKER_05:

The green one is called vegipotamus.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh.

SPEAKER_05:

So you've got sweet hippotamus, bottomless potamus, veggipotamus, pickypotamus.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

And some grown up had to sit in a room with other people and got paid to workshop those names.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

Exactly. But what Hungry Hungry Hippo shows us is that an innovative toy doesn't need to change much. Because other than the names and the colours, it hasn't changed at all since Fred's initial invention. If you shoved a kid from 1978 into a time machine and introduced them to the game today, they would instantly recognise it and know what to do. Which I think is fair enough, isn't it? You're not more enthralled.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm still gobsmacked by uh the pinnacle of human innovatation and being hungry hungry hippos.

SPEAKER_05:

Name something better.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh landing on the moon.

SPEAKER_05:

You can't, can you? You can't.

SPEAKER_02:

Landing on the moon.

SPEAKER_05:

If that happened, there were conspiracy theories. There's no conspiracy theories about hungry hungry hippos.

SPEAKER_02:

Dear dear.

SPEAKER_05:

The invention of a car. That's polluted the world, Neil.

SPEAKER_02:

So hungry hungry hippos is the pinnacle.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, there was the wheel.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

There is the the fire. We'll give chess some credit. I mean chess lasted a long, long time before it was not off its perch by Hungry Hungry Hippos. Electricity, probably the ability to sail the oceans. Yeah. But none of those are there. Imagine if you had the ability to sail the oceans, and you could do like Francis Drake and circumnavigate the globe, how much better that journey would have been with Hungry Hungry Hippos to pass the time. So you can't you can't, Neil. So we've got our kid in our time machine, didn't we? We shoved him in there, we introduced him to the modern day and the game of Hungry Hungry Hippos, now he's wandering about thinking how the hell does he get home aware of his parents? So sorry if you are that little boy. Straightforward play and the thriller of competition of Kept the Hippos Relevant and Love to this day, told ya. As for good old Fred Kroll, he made a penny or two out of trouble, and even more out of Hungry Hungry Hippos. He and Betty moved down to Florida where Fred was known as a philanthropist. Do you know what a philanthropist is? It's not someone who collects stamps.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know, what was it? What is it?

SPEAKER_05:

Philanthropist.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05:

It's two people, one called Philip and one called Anne, who are very, very drunk.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Or it could also be a person who is very generous and has plenty of wealth and uses that wealth to better the world around him or her. Fred and Betty moved down to Florida where he was a philanthropist and he spearheaded an annual drive to provide toys for underprivileged children through various local organizations.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice.

SPEAKER_05:

As well as groups in Guatemala, Jamaica, Haiti, Turkey, and Russia. Where of course his grandparents had skedadel from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

He was also a founding board member of the Alzheimer's Community Care and helped subsidize an adult daycare centre in Boynton Beach that is named in honour of his wife Betty, who Fred supported through her Outzimer's.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_05:

As they got older there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

In all, Fred spent sixty-five years working in the toy industry. That's a lifetime, isn't it? That is a proper lifetime. The final years he was head of Uncle Freddy's Fun Factory, Inc. Okay. Which sounds like something that was written on the door, you wouldn't send you your kids in, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, exactly, yes.

SPEAKER_05:

But it manufactured and licensed updated versions of classic toys such as wire puzzles, magnetic games, kazoos, wooden versions of checkers and chess and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Well checkers, Steve is what we call drafts.

SPEAKER_05:

We do. We do call it drafts in this country.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

It's played on a similar board to your chess.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_05:

Despite a six year fight against cancer, Fred continued to work hard, attending toy fairs and taking the occasional buying and selling trips to Hong Kong and Australia. He also wrote a regular column for the toy business website.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I quite often come across things like that.

SPEAKER_05:

You filthy pig. Fred died on August 2nd, 2003, from cancer when he was 82. He was survived by Betty and their two adult children, Bud and Shelley. Bless him.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

But there he was. He was quite an innovator, was Fred.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he made a game. Two. Two games, sorry.

SPEAKER_05:

Which are still in production.

SPEAKER_02:

Unstanded frustration.

SPEAKER_05:

Now you may have picked up on my use throughout of the double hungry.

SPEAKER_02:

I did, yes. I thought it was an echo.

SPEAKER_05:

Hungry hungry hippos. Uh no, it's because in America originally, you see, where they had it, it was called Hungry Hungry Hippos. But over here we just called I don't know why. It was just a singular hungry hippo. So hungry, hungry hippos and frustration and Fred Kroll. That was the story. Little lead in to Christmas, I think, because it could have Christmas element in there when we spoke about Christmas changing. Ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching.

SPEAKER_02:

Just putting some bit of Christmasy bit in there. No, it was me, Stephen.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_02:

I thought he was coming.

SPEAKER_05:

I thought Santa was on his way. I thought Santa was on his way there. So yes, there we are, children and listener. A little bit of an insight into Christmas 1978. A little bit of an insight into the creation of two of still the most popular games that you can purchase for family entertainment that are out there.

SPEAKER_02:

With your hard earned money hungry hippos and not I know, a mortgage.

SPEAKER_05:

Or anything silly like that. Well, thank you, listener, once again, for joining us for another episode of Ching ching ching ching ching ching ching ching ching.

SPEAKER_02:

Honourable mentions.

SPEAKER_05:

Can you do it in a style of a hungry hippo?

SPEAKER_01:

What bungry hippoes or oh oh.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's very good. That's a hungry hippo. Honorable mentions there, especially. So we'll see you next week when it will be our special once a year Christmas episode, dear listener.

SPEAKER_02:

Exciting.

SPEAKER_05:

It is exciting. We can barely wait. And we will see you then on Honorable Mentor. Hungry, hungry, hungry boy.

SPEAKER_04:

If you want to win the game, you gotta take it today.

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Sweetie Pottermas. I'm Neil's favorite Hungry Hungry Hippo. Apparently, thank you for paying attention to me. After listening to Honorable Mentions, I know how much Steve and Neil appreciate it. Please remember to like, share, subscribe, and leave a five-star review. And if you want to get in touch, you can do so on social media or honorable mentions at gmail.com. Honorable Mentions is researched by Stephen Webb and it's an Uncover Brothers production. And the theme was written and performed by Pepe and the bandits. Please give them a listen wherever you stream your music. Right? That's that. Now listen, man, you haven't got any of those little plastic balls on you, have you? I just need a few I can pay you back later. Come on, man, I've got the shakes going on over here. I just need one. Please.